Szerkesztővita:WhatamIdoing

Following up on your reply to my comment at en:User talk:Iridescent (and thanks again for the offer), the sources I was asking about are [1][2][3][4][5][6][7] Jo-Jo Eumerus ^vita 2021. október 20., 10:28 (CEST)

Zerind and Misibacsi, my friend from the English Wikipedia wants to improve the article about the Ojos del Salado. I noticed that you had edited the Hungarian article previously. Several of interesting-looking sources are in Hungarian. Machine translation from Hungarian to English is poor. I wonder if you could help her, or if you know someone who could help her? WhatamIdoing ^vita 2021. október 20., 17:31 (CEST)

What do you need to be translated? It seems to me that the English text is much longer than the Hungarian version in Wikipedia. So, I do not know how you expect to "improve the English text" from a shorter Hungarian version?

Yes, Google Translator is weak, but DeepL has much better translating quality, try that! It works from Hungarian into English, I just tried it. misibacsi*^üzenet 2021. október 20., 19:31 (CEST)

@Jo-Jo Eumerus, have you tried https://www.deepl.com/translate before? WhatamIdoing ^vita 2021. október 20., 19:48 (CEST)

No, I have never heard of it. And it seems like it cannot translate PDFs with more than one page. Copypasting works but the format is wonky then. @Misibacsi: I need [8] (pages 452 to 461 only)[9][10][11][12][13] Jo-Jo Eumerus ^vita 2021. október 21., 11:38 (CEST)

I just translated the first indicated PDF document "7" (452-461 pages).

Yes, the DeepL has a limit of translating 5000 characters is one run, so, you have to "select / translate / paste" and repeat it as necessary.

Of course the text is not perfect. Can be translating problems and formatting mistakes. I tried to correct some of them.

Images are missing ("figure"), they are "'ábra" in Hungarian.

INTRODUCTION

The mountains of the Dry Andes extend for about 1500 km from the Central Andes to the area. The driest high ranges on Earth rise here, and as the snow line runs along the the highest on the planet, despite peak altitudes of over 6000 metres, glacial But the amount of ice is still very small today.

is not only affecting the surface: the mountain periglacial zone is also undergoing a transformation as the permafrost is also shrinking. This is fundamentally altering the very dry and in places hyper-arid region, its water supply, its surface development and its environmental status.

Our high-mountain environmental change monitoring study, launched in 2012 in Chile The Ojos del Salado (6893 m) is the Chilean site, as it has the highest snow cover on earth and a significant without significant ice cover. Thus, changes in the presence of ice and water can be monitored here in the largest vertical extent in a sensitive environment. The aim of this research is to to accurately detect climate change induced changes in the highest part of the Dry Andes. Emonitoring study by collecting data in the field and then processing it to identify the extreme location of the environmental parameters (mainly mountain desert, periglacial environment and permafrost), changes in which are also a key indicator of climate variability.

dynamics and consequences of climate change.

By analysing the presence of ice and water, taking long-term temperature measurements - 2-yearly data, we already know the length of the melting and freezing periods of the sites under study, dynamics, the mean annual temperatures of the active layer of the regolith, the mean annual temperatures of the the thickness of the active layer, the glacier degradation processes. We can explain the Earth's of the highest lakes of the Earth, their present position and their prospects, but the periglacial the subordinate role of periglacial mass movements.

LOCATION

The driest part of the Andes, the Puna de Atacama highlands and the 6,000 m is one of the most extreme volcanoes on Earth. of the Earth. It is home to the planet's highest Ojos del Salado, 6893 m (27º06'34.6" D, 68º 32'32.1" West), which is located on the Chile-Argentina border, on the cold and dry (less than 150 mm/year precipitation, Messerli et al. 1997) in a region without an ice cap

(Figure 1).

The area above 5000 m with no rainfall at all but snowfall of a few hours in summer is almost weeks - with rapid and complete sublimation of the snow. A snow conditions and the permanent surface ice in the region has been analysed by remote sensing (Gspurning et al. 2006), but the current Due to the often very short presence of current snow cover, both precipitation data and meltwater estimates are uncertain - not to mention the isolation of ice remnants and ice types, degradation and loss processes.

The highest climatic snow line on Earth (around 7000 m, Clapperton

highest desert on the planet (up to about 6000 m), the upper part of which can also be considered a hyperarid periglacial zone. The dormant Ojos del Salado volcano, with a main period of activity of about 30,000 years (Moreno and Gibbons 2007), is today is now a site of volcanic haunting. Our measurements are not influenced by the volcanic character of the mountain as a volcanic complex rises to its highest and most extreme point, the "Dry Andes" puna area (Karátson et al. 2011).

The only geomorphological survey of the area to date has been carried out using remote sensing methods (Kaufmann et al. 1995). This is due to the extreme weather conditions, the difficult accessibility and difficult terrain. Dryness and low temperatures is geographically an area that can also serve as an excellent indicator of both warming and temperature, and the associated additional (subsurface) melting of ice, wetting and drying can dynamically change the environmental conditions. For the Ojos del Salado can be extended, however, to the vast area of the Dry Andes of the Ojos de los Ándos, the desert conditions are essentially similar to those of high mountain deserts. Our conclusions are therefore have a regional exploratory role.

• • • Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) ***

METHODS, TOOLS

Basis for investigations during field visits, material tests and space survey analyses using 1x1 m field resolution data from the GoogleEarth server (29/04/2007, 16/12/2008, 17/04/2012). The subsurface temperature measurements are performed withHOBO Pro v2 dataloggers.

-4200 m at 10 and 35 cm depth

-5260 m at 10, 35 and 60 cm depth

-5830 m at 10, 35 and 60 cm depth

-6750 m at 10 and 17 cm depth

-6893 m at the surface and at 10 cm depth (Figure 2).

In 2014, another station was set up at 4600 metres (10 and 35 cm deep

instruments), and at 5950 m, we also placed a 2 m shaded

a data logger.

The measurement frequency is hourly, i.e. one instrument per hour over the two-year measurement period The snow-firn-ice separation is done with a precision field scale and a Eijkelkamp samplers were used.The porosity and water transport of the regolith metal tube samples were taken to determine the porosity and water transport of the regolith.

RESULTS

Presence of surface ice

Glacier residues on the surface

The surface ice cover of the Ojos del Salado nowadays consists of a few small areas of 100 m of the order of 100 metres. These glacial deposits are located at around 6400 metres (Figure 3), with a maximum thickness of 10-15 m. They melt rapidly, their meltwater feeds small streams. They lie more than 600 m above the estimated snow line and their surface is thin (covered by a firn layer of a few dm).

There are no data on their rate of retreat, but their present rate of decline is expected to continue for several decades of glacier ice can be predicted. So for the time being they are significant sources of water, but this will only be possible over decades. a decade's time horizon.

Buried glacial deposits

The remains of former glaciers on the mountain buried under debris,

covered by slope debris and in the form of ice-cored side moraine chains (between 5000 and 6300 m) on the is still present today to a greater extent than its surface appearance. The loss of glacier ice from this in this arid area, the insulating effect of debris infilling is significantly The melting of this buried ice is one of the most dominant processes today.

Melting accelerates when the buried ice mass is brought to the surface: this is when when the meltwater (which is becoming increasingly important today due to the increasing melting) cut into the valley floor, undercut the valley sides and the sand or or pumice (Figure 4).

Melting of the ice sheet may also start under the thinning sand layer, which will the surface consequence of which is that the sand becomes compacted, rounded, shallow depressions in the covered suffosional, post-subsidence pits of covered karsts.

Meltwater finds its way under the ice filling the valley and melts a subglacial tunnel. In these ice can expand the cavity by melting from below, biting up to the overburden. If a large cavity forms the overlying moraine, sandstone sand, will collapse and form a hole in the surface.

a slumping, subsiding pseudo-slump (Eberhard and Sharples 2013).

On slopes covered with debris above 6000 m, it is particularly characteristic that the sand and siltstone-rich sediments are deposited on thinned glacial deposits. A is thin, so that if large areas of ice are covered by sediment, the melting veins from the melting ice will cut the surface, whereas if small ice fragments are covered by sediment, there is no surface water is present on the surface and moisture is lost (Figure 5).

Water ice

High mountain lakes are formed in closed depressions in the volcanic surface. If there is water water in them, they form talik underneath, but in the case of continuous permafrost, their water cannot seep deep down. But they can dry out or freeze to the bottom. They are mainly made of melt water (permafrost, snow and firn, glaciers), in the latter case water ice sheets are left in place of the lake This is also the case for the highest lake on Earth: there is mostly no open but the water ice sheet shows the seasonal extent of the lake (60-80 m in diameter)

The ice below the surface

In addition to water from melting surface and buried glacier ice, permafrost meltwater from the active layer of the permafrost is also very significant. As a long-term present is currently the most important.

The melting of the permafrost, the uplift of the ice-covered zone, will can only be investigated if we have data on the temperature history of the active layer and the changes in the H2O state. At the most representative geomorphologically characteristic altitudes at the most representative geological altitudes serve this purpose.

4200 m: The very strong thermal fluctuations and the extreme variability of frost cause all the fragmentation the formation of debris that covers everything. At our 4200 m data collection site, one of the instruments measured rocky desert surface temperatures for two years - under direct irradiation (Figure 7).

From this we can conclude that without snow cover, about 330-340 days of frost variability at the surface! A the snow cover, indicated by the disappearance of the extreme daily pendulum, is extreme, as the first In the first year it was about 3-4 weeks in total, while in the second year its total duration reached 4 months,

and the daily temperature fluctuations exceeded 50 ºC (even in winter, when daytime temperatures could exceed 30 ºC). up to 30 ºC and then as low as -20 ºC at night).

5260 m:The active layer is thicker than 60 cm, the upper centimetres are continuously the dry sediment, the thermal stress-strain due to the change of the stacking state is hardly At -60 cm, this occurs only during the spring-autumn transition periods and only for short periods short duration (Figure 8). The active layer is frozen for a maximum period of half a year, the annual mean annual temperature is -0.36 - -0.63 ºC, indicating intermittent permafrost. The thawing reaches rapidly depths, causing rapid drying of the upper half metre (drying out and thawing for half a year, surface to near-surface material is conducive to eolian sediment transport).

5830 m:The freeze-thaw cycles are evident through the temperature gradient of the active layer, which is most important in determining the periods of change in the state of the active layer thickening of the active layer.

The freeze-thaw cycles of the active layer, which thickens to a depth of 60 cm, are also described here by the daily periodocity analysis. The disappearance of the periodicity is due to the high energy consuming changes in the state of matter. While in the winter periods in the completely frozen substrate the daily temperature cycles are observed throughout the winter period, in the thawing period this is repeatedly interrupted several times (Figures 9-10), partly due to the short period of summer snowfall and partly due to the less frequent surface refreezing.

The summer refreezing of near-surface centimetres, due to low external temperatures - is a recurrent phenomenon. However, as we move towards the lower part of the active layer, the higher higher moisture content, changes in accumulation are even more frequent, with a depth of 60 cm practically at the water-ice boundary during the summer season, the rock grain size changes between moisture content between rocks. The active layer at this altitude lasts for 8 months (April to December) and has an annual mean temperature of -3.2 to -3.5 ºC, depending on depth.

period is divided into 4-5 very cold phases, during which the upper layers are subject to temporary refreezing

begins. There is no evidence of a longer, thicker summer snow cover.

The relatively long but prolonged melting period of the cement ice and the significant and its considerable melting depth - plays a crucial role in the water supply of the lower levels: the the most important long-term groundwater source zone.

6893 m:At the top of the Ojos del Salado, measured in 10 cm thick rubble, the annual mean annual temperature (10 cm below the surface) is -17.4ºC and only 18 of the 730 days studied slightly above freezing, while on 97 days the temperature fell below -25 ºC the regolith temperature. However, the almost constantly frozen rock debris was mostly is mostly dry and therefore loose and crumbly.

In contrast to the lower levels, the measurements show that here the winter period is lagging behind daily temperature cycles (Figure 11). This is due to the formation of frozen snow cover on the roof at this time insulating effect of frozen snow on the roof.

CONCLUSIONS

At 6000 m the landscape is still desert ("hyperarid periglacial").

The predominant surface-forming process in the rocky desert environment, besides fragmentation, is wind erosion and residual cover formation. Although the area is permafrost, the Eolian processes override the surface periglacial phenomena.

Absence of periglacial mass movements.

Due to the drying out of the near-surface part of the active layer, frost variability and the presence of periglacial slope mass movements associated with frost heave is subordinate.

5800-6400 m: the main meltwater supply zone.

This is the main source area for meltwater. This is the highest altitude in this zone and buried ice today, the increase in meltwater is observed. In the short term, this melting of ice will increase surface and groundwater flow surface and ground ice in the short term, but in a few decades these types of ice are expected to run out, leading to leading to a drastic decrease in water quantity.

The thawing of the active layer of mountain permafrost present here is a protracted process, with melting of the ice cement feeds the thawing of the slopes with seeping moisture throughout the summer.

regolith layer of the slopes.

As irradiation increases and the surface warms more strongly, the active layer further thickening of the active layer and, in the longer term, degradation of the permafrost. This causes increasing run-off in summer for the time being, but as the permafrost breaks up, the zone and shrinkage of the zone over a few decades, this will also drying is expected.

Ponds feeding on permafrost.

Thickening of the active layer at the main aquifer level, typically to a depth of 50-60 cm

However, due to the accumulation of water and the wetting of the sediments, the active layer is only a few cm thick. Seeping meltwater can create lakes in the impounded basins (Figure 12).

In summer, strong irradiation can cause these shallow (rarely deeper than 1 m) pools of stagnant water to 9 ºC in summer, while the daytime air temperature in the shade can reach near freezing. The heat transfer from the lakes reduces the amount of permafrost beneath them, with a significant creating taliks of considerable size.

LITERATURE USED

BRIDGES, N.T., DE SILVA, S.L., ZIMBELMAN, J.R., LORENZ R.D. 2012. Formation conditions for coarse-grained megaripples on Earth and Mars: lessons from the Argentinian Puna and wind tunnel experiments - Third International Planetary Dunes Workshop

CLAPPERTON C.M. 1994. The Quaternary glaciation of Chile – Revista Chilena de Historia Natural, 67:369-383

DE SILVA, S.L. 2010. Largest wind ripples on Earth? Comment – Geology, 38. 218.

EBERHARD, R., SHARPLES, C. 2013. Appropriate terminology for karst-like phenomena: the problem with ‘pseudokarst’ – International Journal of Speleology 42. (2) 109-113.

GSPURNING, J., LAZER, R., SULZER, W. 2006.Regional climate and snow/glacier distribution in Southern Upper Atacama (Ojos del Salado) – an integrated statistical, GIS and RS based approach – Grazer Schriften der Geographie and Raumforschung, 41. 59-70.

KARÁTSON, D., TELBISZ, T., WÖRNER, G. 2011. Erosion rates and erosion patterns of neogene to Quaternary stratovolcanoes int he Western Cordillera of the Central Andes: an SRTM DEM based analysis – Geology, doi:10.1016/j.geomorph.2011.10.010

MESSERLI, B., GROSJEAN, M.,MATHIAS VUILLE, M. 1997. Water availability, protected areas, and natural resources in the Andean desert Altipano – Mountain Research and Development, vol. 17, No.3, 229-238

MILANA, J.P.2009. Largest wind ripples on Earth? – Geology, 37. 343-346.

MILANA, J.P., FORMAN, S. AND KRÖHLING, D. 2010. Largest wind ripples on Earth? Reply – Geology, 38. 219-220.

MORENO, T., GIBBONS, W. 2007. The Geology of Chile – Geological Society of London, 414.

KAUFMANN, V., KLOSTIUS, W., BENZINGER, R. 1995. Topographic mapping of the Volcano Nevado Ojos del Salado using optical and microwave image data. - Proceedings of the 3rd International Symposium on High Mountain Remote Sensing Cartography, Mendoza, Argentina, 47-59.

THOMAS, D. S. G. 2011. Arid Zone Geomorphology: Process, Form and Change in Drylands – John Wiley & Sons, 648

misibacsi*^üzenet 2021. október 21., 13:05 (CEST)

@Misibacsi: Thanks! Can I check you on this: If I copypaste the text of the articles above into Google Translate, do you think the resulting translation is good or does it contain serious errors? Jo-Jo Eumerus ^vita 2021. október 23., 11:45 (CEST)

@Jo-Jo Eumerus:

Do you want to make another translation on the same Hungarian text with Google Translate?

Or do you want the above (English text, translated by DeepL) to give to Google Translate to translate back to Hungarian? misibacsi*^üzenet 2021. október 23., 11:52 (CEST)

@Misibacsi: I can do the former myself. What I can't do is be sure that Google Translate isn't getting things wrong. That's why I am asking here in fact, I was hoping that someone fluent in Hungarian could check the translations made by GT and tell me whether I can rely on them. Jo-Jo Eumerus ^vita 2021. október 23., 11:59 (CEST)

@Jo-Jo Eumerus:

I am confused on what you ask.

You can give me a text in English and Hungarian, and I can tell if the Hungarian translation is OK (if that what you ask for).

Previously I and other editors in Hungarian WP encountered many times with machine translated texts (made by GT) and those were garbage in Hungarian. Many times the sentences were without sense, so those were deleted from articles.

Recently the GT quality is a bit better, but not enough to accept for everyday use. That's why I told you that DeepL is better. It still needs checking, proofreading and correcting from a native speaker, but it needs much less human work. misibacsi*^üzenet 2021. október 23., 12:19 (CEST)

@Misibacsi:"You can give me a text in English and Hungarian, and I can tell if the Hungarian translation is OK (if that what you ask for)" is what I am asking for, basically. Perhaps via email, though, I am not sure how this Wikipedia's policies are on copying large amounts of copyrighted text on it. Jo-Jo Eumerus ^vita 2021. október 23., 13:12 (CEST)

Maybe e-mail will be better.

I can confirm that Google Translate produces very strange results when translating from Hungarian to English – a simple dictionary substitution would have been better than some of what I've gotten. (I think the worst was something like "comment" or [computer interface] "button" getting turned into "special characters". Those aren't even the same subject.) WhatamIdoing ^vita 2021. október 24., 07:02 (CEST)