Szerkesztő:Nyenyec/FiWiki ArbCom IRC log

[11:58am] nyenyec:
I've read in the English Wikipedia Signpost that you've just elected your Arbitration Committee. is that correct?
[11:58am] nyenyec:
I'd like to ask a few questions about how you guys set it up. I'm an editor in the Hungarian Wikipedia where we're trying to do it for the first time. I'd be interested in your experience.
[11:59am] harriv:
yes it has been set up now, election is just over
[12:00pm] nyenyec:
so it was just created and didn't make any ruling yet?
[12:00pm] harriv:
not yet, I think it was last week when the election was over
[12:00pm] nyenyec:
is it any different from how the english arbcom works?
[12:01pm] harriv:
pretty much same
[12:01pm] harriv:
so much same that I've to read pages again :)
[12:01pm] nyenyec::)
[12:01pm] nyenyec:
and what did you guys do with troublesome editors before you had an arbcom?
[12:01pm] nyenyec:
anyone banned yet?
[12:02pm] harriv:
nyenyec: yes there has been some bans
[12:03pm] str4nd: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kahvihuone_(sekalaista)#Questions_about_your_Arbitration_Committee
[12:03pm] nyenyec:
and you simply voted on it?
[12:03pm] harriv:
nyenyec: no, mainly we single sysop has banned users who have violated the rules hard enough
[12:04pm] harriv:
-we
[12:04pm] nyenyec:
I see. And why did you guys feel that you needed an ArbCom? Too many problem users?
[12:05pm] harriv:
we have also "request for comments" system for problems
[12:05pm] nyenyec:
we too, but it doesn't work :(
[12:05pm] harriv:
Similar problem
[12:05pm] nyenyec:
I see :)
[12:05pm] harriv:
from the original suggestion:
[12:06pm] harriv:
we don't have the final solution for problems, some people can argue a long time and others don't want to intervene
[12:06pm] harriv:
also, there is no "official" way to complain about sysops
[12:07pm] Los3 (n=chatzill@a88-114-249-12.elisa-laajakaista.fi) left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[12:07pm] harriv:
that's from first suggestion last year
[12:07pm] nyenyec:
and how long did it take you from the proposal to the actual election?
[12:08pm] Los3_ is now known as Los3.
[12:08pm] harriv:
let's see..
[12:09pm] harriv:
first draft of arbrtration policy is from aug 16
[12:10pm] nyenyec:
wow, that was quick then
[12:10pm] harriv:
there has been discussion before
[12:11pm] teme_ (i=[U2FsdGV@facade.extremia.fi) joined the chat room.
[12:11pm] nyenyec:
my problem is that very few people in HuWiki know anything about the English ArbCom: what it does, and how it operates
[12:11pm] harriv:
you need some pr :)
[12:12pm] Bazsa (n=chatzill@dsl54006E08.pool.t-online.hu) joined the chat room.
[12:12pm] nyenyec:
and did you elect admins or non-admins mostly?
[12:13pm] nyenyec:
there was a big debate on HuWiki about this: "separation of power" vs. "experience in handling conflicts"
[12:13pm] harriv:
5 / 5
[12:14pm] nyenyec:
was that on purpose?
[12:14pm] harriv:
no
[12:14pm] nyenyec:
anyone could apply?
[12:14pm] harriv:
we had 23 candidates
[12:15pm] nyenyec:
and the people with the top 10 most votes got elected?
[12:15pm] harriv:
yes
[12:15pm] nyenyec:
did you have a minimum threshold?
[12:15pm] harriv:
no
[12:16pm] nyenyec:
was it an approval vote (support only) or yes/no ?
[12:16pm] harriv:
approval vote
[12:16pm] harriv:
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:V%C3%A4lityslautakunta/%C3%84%C3%A4nestys_2007
[12:16pm] harriv:
over there
[12:16pm] nyenyec:
hmm, no discussion?
[12:17pm] nyenyec:
like questions to the candidate?
[12:17pm] harriv:
that's only voting page
[12:17pm] harriv:
discussion is on other page: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:V%C3%A4lityslautakunta/Ehdokkaat_2007
[12:17pm] nyenyec:
oh, I see
[12:17pm] harriv:
the procedure is copied from french wikipedia, I think
[12:18pm] nyenyec:
you mean the ArbCom election procedure specifically?
[12:19pm] nyenyec:
(you're a great help by the way, I appreciate your time)
[12:19pm] harriv:
yes, the election procedure
[12:20pm] nyenyec:
so it's basically: approval vote, top 10 get in, discussion on a separate page
[12:20pm] Haltiamieli (n=Haltiami@dsl-trebrasgw1-fe5dfa00-47.dhcp.inet.fi) joined the chat room.
[12:20pm] harriv:
nyenyec: basically yes
[12:20pm] teme (n=teme@217.30.183.112) left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[12:20pm] nyenyec:
and the top 5 got the 2 year mandate and 6-10 1 year?
[12:21pm] harriv:
yes
[12:21pm] PtGee (i=HydraIRC@a81-197-104-116.elisa-laajakaista.fi) left the chat room. (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The dawn of a new IRC era")
[12:22pm] harriv:
first poll if we want arbcom was sarted at 15.8. (or the latest one actually)
[12:22pm] harriv:
It was discussed before but got rejected then
[12:22pm] nyenyec:
were there big debates about the policy details?
[12:22pm] nyenyec:
what were the main concerns?
[12:23pm] Myrtti:
irc cabal taking over ;-)
[12:23pm] Myrtti:
people electing wrong people
[12:23pm] harriv:
biggest concern was about finnish name :)
[12:23pm] Myrtti:
Wrong Opinions TM
[12:23pm] nyenyec:
I really owe you a beer for taking the time to answer my questions. Let me know when you're in Nashville. ;)
[12:23pm] Myrtti:
yeah the name was troublesome
[12:24pm] nyenyec:
I see
[12:24pm] nyenyec:
and how did you address the concerns about the IRC cabal?
[12:24pm] nyenyec:
in HuWiki people are worried about the admin cabal...
[12:24pm] Myrtti:
sorry, I'm just ironic and sarcastic over the whole issue (and yes, I was elected to it)
[12:25pm] nyenyec:
oh congratulations :)
[12:25pm] Myrtti:
(and I resigned my adminship in June because I got fed up with the admin/irc cabal accusations ;-D)
[12:25pm] Myrtti:
it REALLY sucks
[12:25pm] nyenyec:
oh wow. but you're still on IRC ;)
[12:25pm] Myrtti:
but anyways
[12:26pm] harriv:
nyenyec: longest thread is about the election procedure
[12:26pm] Myrtti:
nyenyec: too much of my work revolves around IRC
[12:26pm] Myrtti:
current anyway
[12:26pm] nyenyec:
can you recall arbcom members?
[12:26pm] Myrtti:
from the channel?
[12:26pm] Myrtti:
or just fi-wiki
[12:27pm] nyenyec:
I mean from the committe. Can you kick them out of the ArbCom if they make wrong decisions?
[12:27pm] Myrtti:
me, Alexius Manfelt, Aulis Eskola, Elena, ML, Samulili, Tomisti...
[12:27pm] Myrtti:
three missing
[12:28pm] nyenyec:
sorry my bad. by "recall" I meant kick them out from their ArbCom positions.
[12:28pm] Myrtti:
Höyhens, Harriv, Kahkonen
[12:28pm] Myrtti::->
[12:29pm] nyenyec:
so what do you do when the ArbCom goes crazy and makes abritrary decisions that the majority disapproves? do you have rules that address this situation?
[12:29pm] harriv:
nyenyec: committee can suspend member if they want to, and start election
[12:29pm] Myrtti:
SODA!
[12:30pm] harriv:
it's pretty unprobable that all members go bezerk :)
[12:30pm] nyenyec:
harriv, thanks. are there specific rules for this or just general terms that it can be done?
[12:30pm] harriv:
I've to check
[12:31pm] nyenyec:
Myrtti: do you know what are the differences between the Finnish and English ArbCom rules? What are the specific points where the Finnish ArbCom operates differently?
[12:31pm] harriv:
nyenyec: arbcom can suspend a member for a specific time with unanimous decision
[12:32pm] Myrtti:
nyenyec: I've not familiarized myself with the differences. The only thing I know is that we need it.
[12:32pm] harriv:
nyenyec: permanent suspensions needs public vote, which can be started only by arbcom
[12:33pm] nyenyec:
I see. But the general feel is the same isn't it. People collect difflinks, ArbCom decied about possible sanction and gives an explanation based on the existing rules, right?
[12:34pm] harriv:
yes
[12:35pm] nyenyec:
how do you plane to deal with precedents? E.g "calling someone a nazi resulted in a 3 month block last time, so I shouldn't get more than that when I do it"
[12:35pm] harriv:
and actually if our rules aren't sufficient enough, we can rely on rules on english wikipedia, if applicable
[12:35pm] nyenyec:
harriv, that's explicitly stated?
[12:36pm] harriv:
nyenyec: yes
[12:36pm] Myrtti:
why invent the wheel again
[12:37pm] harriv:
1. our own rules, 2. english rules if the work, 3. style guide and other similar text, licenses, 4. finnish law
[12:37pm] nyenyec:
we have had a similar practice, but now there is a backlash: it became fashionable to make disparaging comments about EnWiki and their practice
[12:37pm] harriv:
then it's better to define own rules
[12:38pm] nyenyec:
yeah, that's what we tried but it resulted in *endless* debates and the whole process is stuck now :)
[12:38pm] nyenyec:
but you've been a great help, thanks both of you
[12:39pm] harriv:
you're welcome, good luck :)
[12:39pm] nyenyec:
would you mind if I put this IRC log in a public place?
[12:39pm] nyenyec:
I'll write a Hungarian summary too
[12:42pm] harriv:
fine for me
[12:44pm] Myrtti:
you might want to edit 20:02 < s11ma> puhukaa nyt vittu suomea
[12:44pm] Myrtti:
off
[12:44pm] nyenyec:
ok, thank you again
[12:44pm] Myrtti:
np